7 Questions for UBI Proponents

[hisich]

As the Establishment & its political puppets continue promoting the idea of UBI--for surely nefarious reasons--I wonder how all of the self-styled 'rebels' who think they're being anti-Establishment by promoting the Establishment policy of turning us all into children who receive an allowance from the Establishment would answer these Q's:

1. Who is going to administer this program, if not the corrupt Establishment currently in charge?

2. Are there any limits as to who is allowed to collect this 'free' money, i.e., will a World Ruling Class re-distribute wealth to everyone on Earth, will individual nations do it only for their own citizens, do you dummies think 1st World nations can simply absorb all the billions of poverty-stricken 3rd Worlders into their nations, etc...?

3. What do you propose doing to people who don't want to participate--on either the receiving or giving end?

4. Do all of the current unsustainable, failing, severely-underfunded, UBI-ish, bankrupt, something-for-nothing programs that already exist (public & private pensions, economic &medical welfare programs, school/college subsidies, artificial make-work jobs/useless admin, etc.) not give you any pause regarding your even more ambitious "Free Shit For Everyone" utopian fantasies?

5. We put signs up in nature areas telling people not to feed the animals (i.e., give them 'free' stuff), as it will promote dependence & degrade their ability to fend for themselves. Why does the same principle not apply to humans (do all the MILLIONS of people getting 'free' shit now live particularly useful or purposeful lives--go to a housing project & get back to me!)?

6. After you ensure everyone can live for 'free', how do you deal w/reproduction...will people be allowed to have as many children as they want or will the Ruling Class act as cattle farmers who direct human reproduction?

7. Lastly, since y'all are SO concerned about the poor/needy, I'm sure that you, as pampered 1st World suburbanites surrounded by abundance, ALREADY give significant portions of YOUR OWN incomes to FAR worse off people living in truly impoverished conditions in the 3rd World, yes...?

 

[enjoypolo]

Good to see you back hisich.
Unfortunately, you're making statements about what a UBI looks like based on false-premises (dependence; free-money; mass immigration; increase in reproduction rates), which I would gladly elaborate on if you wish.
Funnily enough, I think CNN's recent Town Hall meeting with Andrew Yang seems more appropriate in this case (this is a rare time you'll see me posting cnn)

PS: Scott Santens, the advocate that was on the THC previously, has a great FAQ that addresses many of the initial knee-jerk reactions people have about UBI. He also moderates the r/basicincome subreddit.

 

[hisich]

Good to see you back hisich.
Unfortunately, you're making statements about what a UBI looks like based on false-premises (dependence; free-money; mass immigration; increase in reproduction rates), which I would gladly elaborate on if you wish.
Funnily enough, I think CNN's recent Town Hall meeting with Andrew Yang seems more appropriate in this case (this is a rare time you'll see me posting cnn)

I don't see a single answer to any of my 7 Q's...

 

[enjoypolo]

I don't see a single answer to any of my 7 Q's...

If time wasn't as precious, I would gladly delve into each one of your questions, but alas, I will direct you instead to listen to the Scott Santens episode Greg did a few years ago.
I'm not saying your questions aren't legitimate, but for the most part, they are addressed at the start of the episode.

Food for thought: What are your thoughts on Alaska? Because they've been using the Permanent Dividend Fund since 1982, where the State imposed a fee on oil companies that helps redistribute the cash to the local residents as well as investments.
As far as I know, the people there seem to enjoy the benefit of it.

 

[hisich]

If time wasn't as precious, I would gladly delve into each one of your questions, but alas, I will direct you instead to listen to the Scott Santens episode Greg did a few years ago.
I'm not saying your questions aren't legitimate, but for the most part, they are addressed at the start of the episode.

OK, so no answer!

Food for thought: What are your thoughts on Alaska? Because they've been using the Permanent Dividend Fund since 1982, where the State imposed a fee on oil companies that helps redistribute the cash to the local residents as well as investments.
As far as I know, the people there seem to enjoy the benefit of it.

I think its atrocious. People getting perceived 'free' stuff like it, wow, what a shocker! People on the paying end (like me) of welfare programs don't like it so much...

 

[shamangineer]

OK, so no answer!

No, Enjopolo references a very detailed response. Ignoring something doesn't make it non-existent.

I think its atrocious. People getting perceived 'free' stuff like it, wow, what a shocker! People on the paying end (like me) of welfare programs don't like it so much...

In Iowa if you make $50K/year you pay $36/year for welfare and $6/year for social security.

The share of the same persons taxes for corporate subsidies is $6k.

Welfare requires an income of about half of the poverty rate and provides a few hundred a month. People on welfare are still poverty-stricken. These are not the people who are robbing you.

The people who are robbing you really really want you to think that the poor are talking your money though.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone has been taking lots of money from millions of Americans for years that they would now have lots of money.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...-does-welfare-cost-average-taxpayer/84917512/

 

[shamangineer]

What it's like being on welfare:

 

[hisich]

No, Enjopolo references a very detailed response. Ignoring something doesn't make it non-existent.



In Iowa if you make $50K/year you pay $36/year for welfare and $6/year for social security.

The share of the same persons taxes for corporate subsidies is $6k.

Welfare requires an income of about half of the poverty rate and provides a few hundred a month. People on welfare are still poverty-stricken. These are not the people who are robbing you.

The people who are robbing you really really want you to think that the poor are talking your money though.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if someone has been taking lots of money from millions of Americans for years that they would now have lots of money.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...-does-welfare-cost-average-taxpayer/84917512/

Not sure what you're talking about when you say folks making $50K/year are paying so little for welfare & social security. Taxation is the biggest expense for many/most middle-income working folks...how you blame this on 'da corporations, maaaaaan' is beyond me.

Lots and lots of people have their hands in my pocket...the difference between 'poor' people in the West (who live easier lives than the vast majority of people who've EVER lived) and da' evil corporations is that da evil corporations usually provide some value to society and, unlike the 'poor', actually pay taxes.


And, yes, the current state of affairs is EXACTLY what democracy & bleeding-heart 'progressivism' (let's have the govt. take care of everyone!) looks like...in case you hadn't noticed, the voting franchise has been vastly expanded post-Civil War and the 20th century on has been dominated by the same kind of 'progressive' policies you UBI clowns want to, incredibly, expand further (despite the CURRENT welfare state being completely unsustainable).

 

[hisich]

What it's like being on welfare:

STILL NO ANSWERS!!!

 

[hisich]

As the Establishment & its political puppets continue promoting the idea of UBI--for surely nefarious reasons--I wonder how all of the self-styled 'rebels' who think they're being anti-Establishment by promoting the Establishment policy of turning us all into children who receive an allowance from the Establishment would answer these Q's:

1. Who is going to administer this program, if not the corrupt Establishment currently in charge?

2. Are there any limits as to who is allowed to collect this 'free' money, i.e., will a World Ruling Class re-distribute wealth to everyone on Earth, will individual nations do it only for their own citizens, do you dummies think 1st World nations can simply absorb all the billions of poverty-stricken 3rd Worlders into their nations, etc...?

3. What do you propose doing to people who don't want to participate--on either the receiving or giving end?

4. Do all of the current unsustainable, failing, severely-underfunded, UBI-ish, bankrupt, something-for-nothing programs that already exist (public & private pensions, economic &medical welfare programs, school/college subsidies, artificial make-work jobs/useless admin, etc.) not give you any pause regarding your even more ambitious "Free Shit For Everyone" utopian fantasies?

5. We put signs up in nature areas telling people not to feed the animals (i.e., give them 'free' stuff), as it will promote dependence & degrade their ability to fend for themselves. Why does the same principle not apply to humans (do all the MILLIONS of people getting 'free' shit now live particularly useful or purposeful lives--go to a housing project & get back to me!)?

6. After you ensure everyone can live for 'free', how do you deal w/reproduction...will people be allowed to have as many children as they want or will the Ruling Class act as cattle farmers who direct human reproduction?

7. Lastly, since y'all are SO concerned about the poor/needy, I'm sure that you, as pampered 1st World suburbanites surrounded by abundance, ALREADY give significant portions of YOUR OWN incomes to FAR worse off people living in truly impoverished conditions in the 3rd World, yes...?

Since UBI Clowns refuse to answer, I will answer for them!


1. Angelic, selfless, ultra-genius people capable of micro-managing the lives of 100's of million--if not BILLIONS--who rise to the top of the power structure.

2. Details which our wise Rulers will work out--no need for us to worry about it!

3. EVERYONE will want to participate! But IF some don't want to, out of our selfless desire to help humanity, we will either cage or kill them!

4. Bah! Our omnipotent rulers will figure this out--don't worry about it!

5. Poppy-cock! Remember...FREE STUFF!

6. FREE STUFF!

7. I'm doing my part by promoting the notion that OTHER PEOPLE be forced to help the needy!

 

[shamangineer]

Not sure what you're talking about when you say folks making $50K/year are paying so little for welfare & social security. Taxation is the biggest expense for many/most middle-income working folks...how you blame this on 'da corporations, maaaaaan' is beyond me.

The larger part of your taxes goes towards corporate subsidies. These subsidies ensure donations to the politician who enacted them. I could draw a diagram, but I think most people get it.
https://www.nationofchange.org/2018/01/19/really-pays-corporate-subsidies/

Another major chunk of taxes goes to blowing shit up halfway across the world:

Just the annual increase in defense spending last year was higher than welfare & social security spending. It was also more than enough money to pay for free college. But I guess we can't just be content spending more than the rest of the industrialized world combined on the military.

 

[hisich]

The larger part of your taxes goes towards corporate subsidies. These subsidies ensure donations to the politician who enacted them. I could draw a diagram, but I think most people get it.
https://www.nationofchange.org/2018/01/19/really-pays-corporate-subsidies/

Another major chunk of taxes goes to blowing shit up halfway across the world:

Just the annual increase in defense spending last year was higher than welfare & social security spending. It was also more than enough money to pay for free college. But I guess we can't just be content spending more than the rest of the industrialized world combined on the military.

Imagine that...trillion$ are sent to the central govt. & it isn't spent the way you'd like to see it spent! Once our Rulers are given even more money/power to redistribute, I'm sure they'll start funding the things you want them to! That said, yes, govt. spends a retarded amount maintaining its empire.

I note that you've only included the discretionary budget, which is about 1/4 of the total federal budget...let's see where the lion's share is actually spent:

Total Federal Outlays: $4.11 trillion

As we can see over 50% is spent an various welfare programs (Health Care, Pensions, Welfare, Education).

 

[hisich]

UBI clowns, like most of the rest of our clueless society/govt., ignore these inconvenient facts too!

U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion (and counting!)

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/6941...trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall


Your Pension Is a Lie: There's $210 Trillion Of Liabilities Our Government Can't Fulfill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnma...ies-our-government-cant-fulfill/#38f74a1c65b1

 

[shamangineer]

You count healthcare and pensions as welfare? Jesus dude.

Since you posted about the deficit twice, I suppose I should say it twice but a lot of companies got a refund for paying zero taxes last year, and that's not shifting a tax burden to you?? It's poor people and all those people out there with their fancy healthcare and pensions huh?
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amazon/2019/02/14/id/902824/

 

[hisich]

You count healthcare and pensions as welfare? Jesus dude.

People getting money for 'free' (i.e., not earning it) is welfare in my book. I'm surprised that you dishonestly came w/a chart of only discretionary spending.

Since you posted about the deficit twice, I suppose I should say it twice but a lot of companies got a refund for paying zero taxes last year, and that's not shifting a tax burden to you?? It's poor people and all those people out there with their fancy healthcare and pensions huh?
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/amazon/2019/02/14/id/902824/

Do you think ignoring the debt problem (primarily due to past promises of 'free' shit) makes it go away...?

 

[shamangineer]

People getting money for 'free' (i.e., not earning it) is welfare in my book. I'm surprised that you dishonestly came w/a chart of only discretionary spending.

So the main beneficiaries of government health care are retired people, poor children, and veterans. Who deserves sickness and death and why didn't they earn their existence?
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-federal-government-spend-health-care

The pension fund is paid to government workers, they did work for it. Social Security was also deducted while working.

Do you think ignoring the debt problem (primarily due to past promises of 'free' shit) makes it go away...?

Taxing the people who have money is the only way to reduce the deficit even with zero spending (which would tank the economy).

 

[hisich]

So the main beneficiaries of government health care are retired people, poor children, and veterans. Who deserves sickness and death and why didn't they earn their existence?
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-federal-government-spend-health-care

The pension fund is paid to government workers, they did work for it. Social Security was also deducted while working.



Taxing the people who have money is the only way to reduce the deficit even with zero spending (which would tank the economy).

STILL no answers to ANY of my 7 Q's...

 

[enjoypolo]

STILL no answers to ANY of my 7 Q's...

No offense hisich, but I feel like trying to explain colours to someone who can only see in black and white is bit futile.. Regarding your answers, I stick to my previous post with the link to the THC Episode with Scott. You'll find most of (if not all) your answers.

Kindly,
EP

 

[hisich]

No offense hisich, but I feel like trying to explain colours to someone who can only see in black and white is bit futile.. Regarding your answers, I stick to my previous post with the link to the THC Episode with Scott. You'll find most of (if not all) your answers.

Kindly,
EP

Who would've guessed that 7 simple Q's would be so hard for UBI Utopianists to answer...

 

[shamangineer]

Oh for fucks sake!

As the Establishment & its political puppets continue promoting the idea of UBI--for surely nefarious reasons--I wonder how all of the self-styled 'rebels' who think they're being anti-Establishment by promoting the Establishment policy of turning us all into children who receive an allowance from the Establishment would answer these Q's:

1. Who is going to administer this program, if not the corrupt Establishment currently in charge?

Part of the beauty of the universal portion of UBI is that it would require little administration. It would in fact be capable of vastly reducing administration costs if it were able to replace welfare and social security, which it should be able to do.

2. Are there any limits as to who is allowed to collect this 'free' money, i.e., will a World Ruling Class re-distribute wealth to everyone on Earth, will individual nations do it only for their own citizens, do you dummies think 1st World nations can simply absorb all the billions of poverty-stricken 3rd Worlders into their nations, etc...?

This would be for all citizens. Simple enough?

3. What do you propose doing to people who don't want to participate--on either the receiving or giving end?

I doubt many would turn it down. They would still receive a check, but they can give it all to charity or whatever they like. I am pretty sure people who didn't pay taxes would be jailed rather than given a refund. Imagine that.

4. Do all of the current unsustainable, failing, severely-underfunded, UBI-ish, bankrupt, something-for-nothing programs that already exist (public & private pensions, economic &medical welfare programs, school/college subsidies, artificial make-work jobs/useless admin, etc.) not give you any pause regarding your even more ambitious "Free Shit For Everyone" utopian fantasies?

I do agree that most administration jobs are BS jobs, another reason for UBI would be reduced paperwork. Who the fuck would want to work a BS job if there were other options. With regard to the rest:

5. We put signs up in nature areas telling people not to feed the animals (i.e., give them 'free' stuff), as it will promote dependence & degrade their ability to fend for themselves. Why does the same principle not apply to humans (do all the MILLIONS of people getting 'free' shit now live particularly useful or purposeful lives--go to a housing project & get back to me!)?

Go to the housing project and live on the street for a week with nothing but the clothes on your back and let us know how that goes for you, how did you fend?

6. After you ensure everyone can live for 'free', how do you deal w/reproduction...will people be allowed to have as many children as they want or will the Ruling Class act as cattle farmers who direct human reproduction?

Are you fishing for some eugenicist's wet dream or something? Umm, well, not so much. Most industrialized countries are at negative population growth. It seems to me the primary reason that people have more children is insecurity.

7. Lastly, since y'all are SO concerned about the poor/needy, I'm sure that you, as pampered 1st World suburbanites surrounded by abundance, ALREADY give significant portions of YOUR OWN incomes to FAR worse off people living in truly impoverished conditions in the 3rd World, yes...?

I personally have not, but I have given directly to homeless people, relatives, volunteered, and given multiple chats for the love of the game. What have you given people other than a shitty attitude?