Scott Santens: Universal Basic Income

[enjoypolo]

You should take a trip to Honduras as it is a giant Libertarian experiment. I am sure when you have people asking for tolls in exchange for filling up potholes with dirt and debris out of sheer desparation, and you might have a better appreciation of "yuh roads" among other things.

https://www.salon.com/2015/03/02/my...nd_ron_paul_their_groupies_were_all_debunked/

Wow, thank you Shamangineer for that link. I did not know about Honduras being an actualized libertarian government put in place, and it confirms all the horror that leads to a neo-capitalist's wet dream.

Meanwhile, and I don't want to necessarily make this about Yang, but his actions speak louder than words. Respect.
https://twitter.com/AndrewYangVFA/status/1096232435694612480

 

[metalegs]

I skimmed a lot of this, burning to throw this out there.

Money is printed paper, made by a corporation and handed out to corporations that WE pay "interest" on.

Unless we can burn it all down why shouldn't that money come through the people instead of the corporations for a change?

 

[enjoypolo]

I skimmed a lot of this, burning to throw this out there.

Money is printed paper, made by a corporation and handed out to corporations that WE pay "interest" on.

Unless we can burn it all down why shouldn't that money come through the people instead of the corporations for a change?

It's a good point, and why the so-called trickle-down economics, meaning reducing taxes corporations and on wealthy class to stimulate investment, I mean I'm not an economist, but I don't feel it's working well, at all. Anywhere. It's classic scam taken straight out of Animal Farms.

The other point you alluded to, about currency itself is important too. In the context of France, true sovereignty will only come about if 1) France draws a line from the EU-dystopia and 2) Create a new, national currency (New Franc, like we used to have before 2000) printed by the government without paying interests on it.

Again, I'm not an expert by any means in economy, but I feel it will really (r)evolutionize, or stimulate, the economy. I certainly never learned at school, nor at university, that money printed was de-facto charging interest. It shows how the establishment doesn't want you to know how it works.

Last but not least, if I'm not mistaken, the last american president to have dared to announce that option was JFK, and we all know how it ended..
Still, there is light at the end of the tunnel. People in France are increasingly talking about this, and it gives me faith.

PS: One novel idea that Andrew Yang discussed with Joe on that episode, was the idea of giving every american a $100 democracy-fund. This would allow everyone a chance to contribute towards their choice campaigns. I'd love to hear more about that.
Oh, and I donated $1 towards Yang's campaign yesterday, so I guess I unapologetically rigged the american election. Sorry, not sorry

 

[shamangineer]

The presidents who went against a central bank and tried to have the Treasury issue money were Andrew Jackson, Lincoln, and JFK. All three were either assassinated or in Jackson's case lucky as he had two pistols aimed at his belly misfire. An excellent documentary on the subject of money issuance in America below:

The Secret of Oz:

 

[nickzeptepi]

I haven't gotten round to listening yet I will updated afterwards but I'm of-aye with the concept of UBI

We sort of have a version of it in the UK already but there are lockdowns mechanisms and loads of hoops to jump through to get it.

If you are out of work unable to work due to disability, etc etc the Goverment gives you a basic allowance to cover the basics food, shelter, warmth etc. and then theres the basic social free to use social health and dental care. Its not much and varied on circumstanes were talking £600 a month maybe less, probably more if you have to pay the slum landlord haha
But you report to a local Goverment office each week in person to and report things like what you are doing to find a job (i looked at the job listing, i applied for 3 jobs yada yada)
Any employment found that goes over a tiny amount of hours or money will mean your goverment money is removed deducted or delayed. the overall knock on effect is people put more effort into jumping through the hoops of the system to stay within it than developing themselves.

Employed people are given £11,000 a year tax free allowance so you can earn that much before the gov starts taking their tithe but there are stealth taxes like on insurance for your car (compulsory) purchase taxes etc etc.

When the Finnish did the UBI quite a few Finnish teens turned up and went backpacking around Eastern Asia - they knew it was a time limit and used it to there advantage.

I suggest that if the same basic income the European Govs give is not linked to the hoop jumping and efforts to stay in the system then the people have been given sufficient to survive - and the rest is up to them. they can go to creative pursutis and do a little entrepreneurial stuff on the side - work part time job to get the added benefits of a corporate job etc etc.

They are already giving the money anyways - the money saved on the admin and buildings etc to ensure the plebs jump through hoops can at first be put towards support through the transitional period and then the long term over a few years the people will change their view and attiudes toward it

But i do see how this could easily be the start of chipping people - save on the issuing money and just scan your hand to deduct a certain amount from your UBI account - scan hand to get health care etc.

I recall John taylor gatto explaining the end of Slavery in the USA - mainly because the owner had to take care of the health of the sick old mama etc - So if they could turn them into wage slaves then they wouldn't have to take care of the non-productive workers

Apply the same logic to UBI - loads of money saved on admin - if the pleb falls they have no obligation to catch him in the safety net, other people will likely not support them as they are in the same boat and its a dog eat dog world - the prisoners turn into guarding the other prisoners - Like the Chinese social credit system - link it to UBI and you'll have people grassing on minor things to increase their score and UBI credit.

The slaves will kill each other or themselves so they don't have to get blood on their hands!!

If the future is more enlightenment and the stable structure crumble in this crazy world - theres gonna be a load of people who won't cope very well with personal responsibility - After the USSR fell millions of russians drank themselves to death in the face of no one to TELL them to do this or that.

 

[metalegs]

So, I have to wonder..
IF we really are slaves with an openish cage (I believe this) then why would they give us anything? They could just crack the whip by restricting entertainment, fuel, food, power, or water. Instead they offer us money? Not just a benefit like a SNAP card but cash! Is it a manipulation to save the herd? If this was organic wouldnt they just reduce/eliminate taxes in some form?
And the 64 dollar question, are they afraid we are close to breaking out and this in an attempt to placate us??

 

[enjoypolo]

I got couple comments:
Nickzeptepi, the case you mentioned in England is the regular, conditional welfare system with all its faulty structures that ends up creating the "welfare trap" for the reasons you mentioned (mainly, dependence on the cheques, and to The Man).

The one thing that really sets UBI from Welfare is the fact that it's Un-conditional, the only caveat could be, reserved for citizens.

In Yang's case: He calls it the “Freedom Dividend,” where every American citizen 18 and older will be paid $1,000 a month from the government (source: at the bottom)

This is a key feature to get beyond the stigma associated with welfare (because the latter creates a division between welfare and non-welfare recipients). Now, you could set parametres such that, only legal citizens have access to this, If I remember correctly, this stuff was deconstructed pretty well in the Scott Santens episode.

As for Metalegs, why don't they just crack the whip? Well, they clearly have been. There's more precarious work(ers), less stable income, increase in drug abuses, real-estate prices are skyrocketing. So it's been happening for a while now. But if you try to bend a stick too hard, eventually, it breaks. If you're interested in that, I highly recommend reading Silent Weapons For Quiet Wars, a short handbook which explains in concrete terms, how populations (collective packets of energy) react to stress tests (e.g., price of oil, and other commodities, etc.).

Almost no media is talking about the historical grassroots movement of the Yellow Vests that's swept France since November.
Those are people whose backs have been cracked so hard by their masters, that they're literally on the streets because they can't live.
The Masters need to strike a delicate balance to obtain obedience and discipline, without leading to mutiny.

To your last point, David Icke was refused entry to Australia to appear in his tour just today. So yes, with everything that's happening in the World, there's a trend of the government tightening their leashes of their people. But I'm willing to speculate it'll back-fire on them eventually.

EDIT: Some enlightening resources on UBI:

When working hard doesn’t cut it by Annie Mehl (2/18/19)
http://carrollspaper.com/Content/De...oesn-t-cut-it/-3/449/27130?platform=hootsuite

Edit 2: Rutger Bregman sticking it to Tucker Carlson, haha
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1098282209834950657

 

[hisich]

Hisich, I've lost track of where you're trying to go with this.

But just so you know, if you're promoting less government intervention, you might wanna re-consider your position on UBI. There's more in common than you think.

Oh, the irony...'higher' education & HC are two of the areas MOST heavily subsidized/controlled by govt. And most working people's #1 expense is TAXES--odd that it is nowhere to be seen on this cartoon (must've been drawn by a Lefty!)...


Shaman, you don't live in reality...

 

[hisich]

You should take a trip to Honduras as it is a giant Libertarian experiment. I am sure when you have people asking for tolls in exchange for filling up potholes with dirt and debris out of sheer desparation, you might have a better appreciation of "yuh roads" among other things.

https://www.salon.com/2015/03/02/my...nd_ron_paul_their_groupies_were_all_debunked/

Its only a "giant Libertarian experiment" to Leftists who hate libertarianism/freedom...and, unsurprisingly, you seem to think that roads are maintained for 'free' in the USA, as if taxes don't exist!

If y'all Lefties are gonna critique libertarianism (not the Strawman boogey-man in your minds) you should at least learn a little about it first...


An article at AlterNet called “11 Questions You Should Ask Libertarians to See If They’re Hypocrites” is just crying out to be discussed and demolished on the Tom Woods Show. Today is your lucky day.


https://tomwoods.com/ep-1348-another-leftist-tries-to-refute-us-womp-womp/

 

[hisich]

It's a good point, and why the so-called trickle-down economics, meaning reducing taxes corporations and on wealthy class to stimulate investment, I mean I'm not an economist, but I don't feel it's working well, at all. Anywhere. It's classic scam taken straight out of Animal Farms.

The other point you alluded to, about currency itself is important too. In the context of France, true sovereignty will only come about if 1) France draws a line from the EU-dystopia and 2) Create a new, national currency (New Franc, like we used to have before 2000) printed by the government without paying interests on it.

Again, I'm not an expert by any means in economy, but I feel it will really (r)evolutionize, or stimulate, the economy. I certainly never learned at school, nor at university, that money printed was de-facto charging interest. It shows how the establishment doesn't want you to know how it works.

Last but not least, if I'm not mistaken, the last american president to have dared to announce that option was JFK, and we all know how it ended..
Still, there is light at the end of the tunnel. People in France are increasingly talking about this, and it gives me faith.

PS: One novel idea that Andrew Yang discussed with Joe on that episode, was the idea of giving every american a $100 democracy-fund. This would allow everyone a chance to contribute towards their choice campaigns. I'd love to hear more about that.
Oh, and I donated $1 towards Yang's campaign yesterday, so I guess I unapologetically rigged the american election. Sorry, not sorry

The USGovt. spends like $4 TRILLION/yr. & taxes are most working people's #1 expense...the USGovt. is the biggest in HISTORY...

Lefty clowns view this as 'unrestrained capitalism' & 'libertarianism in action'...dude, you DON'T LIVE IN REALITY!!!

 

[shamangineer]

The U.S. is not a libertarian society, and neither is it socialist, it is a subsidized form of capitalism with the business class at the helm of politics and are the main beneficiary of taxes and tax loopholes.

Here is a list of things that are socialized in America, in recent decades more things on the list have been privatized in one way or another - most notably the armed forces. A major point of note is that while the engraving for currency is socialized the management of liquidity and issuance of money from the Federal Reserve has been privatized for over a century.

http://www.bobcrespo.com/2009/09/things-that-are-socialized-in-america/

The rise of mercenaries is particularly disturbing as the reason standing armies were founded was to end the use of mercenaries for war as the atrocities that resulted were too terrible to bear.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/return-of-the-mercenary/388616/

 

[enjoypolo]

hisish: Are you here to redeem our souls from your leftist apocalypse?

 

[hisich]

hisish: Are you here to redeem our souls from your leftist apocalypse?

Shaman...taxes are most working people's largest expense...why aren't they included on this cartoon?

The biggest obstacle to achieving most of the things in this cartoon are taxes & regulations--why isn't this addressed as well?

If we didn't have crappy govt.-mandated money & a central-bank (a tenet of the Communist Manifesto) which manipulates interest rates & creates easy credit, the price of many things we buy (cars, houses, etc.) wouldn't be artificially high--not addressed here either!

And, as I said, schooling (K-University) is heavily subsidized/regulated by govt...so are most aspects of HC & Ins....also not addressed...are you dishonest or just ignorant of these realities?

 

[hisich]

The U.S. is not a libertarian society, and neither is it socialist, it is a subsidized form of capitalism with the business class at the helm of politics and are the main beneficiary of taxes and tax loopholes.

Here is a list of things that are socialized in America, in recent decades more things on the list have been privatized in one way or another - most notably the armed forces. A major point of note is that while the engraving for currency is socialized the management of liquidity and issuance of money from the Federal Reserve has been privatized for over a century.

http://www.bobcrespo.com/2009/09/things-that-are-socialized-in-america/

The rise of mercenaries is particularly disturbing as the reason standing armies were founded was to end the use of mercenaries for war as the atrocities that resulted were too terrible to bear.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/return-of-the-mercenary/388616/

IMO, some of the most important "means of production" have been socialized (which is just another way to say State Monopoly)--the wages/incomes of every single American, the monetary system (which is 1/2 of every economic transaction), and the legal system. Once govt. has the power to direct such massive flows of money/power & to decide who is and isn't punished, I don't really care about smaller details.


Govt. selling/giving/offloading its services/assets to cronies isn't really privatization. Govt. running-up huge debts that others have to pay isn't privatization either. Privatization would look more like govt. issuing ownership stock to tax-payers who could then decide what they want to do w/said services/assets.

I think maybe our main disagreement is w/the very nature of govt...I think you see it as an instrument of "the people" ('we' are the govt.) while I see it as a group of people ('they' are the govt.) who use terrorism to rule us. You think the Ring of Power can be used for good while I think it should be destroyed.

Leftists are really quite confused...but I'm here to help!

 

[hisich]

The more I think about it, this cartoon really is the perfect encapsulation of whiney, entitled, clueless, victimhood-mentality Lefties...student loan debt as a ball-and-chain, LOL, as if anyone forces dumbass 18-24 y.o.'s to overpay for a crappy degree so that worthless Leftist teachers can get 6-figure salaries & medical debt as a ball-and-chain as if everyone suffers a medical catastrophe that puts them in unplayable debt prior to starting out life as an adult. Fucking childish!

[/QUOTE]

 

[shamangineer]

It's pretty clear you have never been burdened with an abundance of education or knowledge so I understand if you don't get it.

 

[hisich]

It's pretty clear you have never been burdened with an abundance of education or knowledge so I understand if you don't get it.

Oh, but I do get it...

 

[hisich]

 

[hisich]

 

[hisich]