The Process Church of the Final Judgement

[prettygood]

I would love to hear a one sided conspiracy show on this topic. I would also love to hear a point/counter-point with two guests on this topic.

Maury Terry's Ultimate Evil Links:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WOb2eHZUgo&amp;list=PLaKsTC4qLAS-hzBrWHiroIWrfPCMvj74W">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WOb2eHZUgo&amp;list=PLaKsTC4qLAS-hzBrWHiroIWrfPCMvj74W</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi5nzwBFHHs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi5nzwBFHHs</a>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUZYt7EncI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUZYt7EncI</a>

Pro-Process?
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ZClTFLF4I">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ZClTFLF4I</a>

Lucien Graves on DTFH:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P3JYETvpqs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P3JYETvpqs</a>
-- Doesn't specifically discuss PCFJ but mentions Process.org a number of times
-- "Satanic Panic" discussion (50:00-55:00 or so) echos the position of the "New Cult Awareness Network" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Cult_Awareness_Network)

 

[trished40]

After reading Timothy Wiley's book on his time in the Process a few years ago, I find all the conspiracy angles on it to be very hard to believe. Abusive cult? Absolutely. Connected to Manson? It's been debunked in <em>The Manson File</em>.

 

[prettygood]

I haven't read either of those books, but I'll be sure to put them on my list.

But Manson claimed to have achieved the Scientology level of Clear in prison prior to 1968 and The Process Church is a Scientology splinter group. That's a pretty "clear" connection to me. How does "The Manson File" debunk their connection? I'm not trying to be contrary or disrespectful, just generally interested.

Does Timothy Wiley's book touch on the Best Friends Animal Shelter/Society, Arlis Perry, or the Smiley Face Killer?

I'm getting more interested in the idea that there was a significant, diverse, and compartmentalized network of drug/human traffickers in Southern California in the late 60's, that Manson and The Process Church were associates of that group, and that the Tate/Labianca murders was a contract Manson accepted. A hit that "the group" put up as retribution for the public whipping of a drug dealer at a party a couple days before hand.

In that Ed Opperman discussion (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi5nzwBFHHs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi5nzwBFHHs</a>), I believe someone mentions that Sue Atkins needle-pointed Process symbols including the "not-a-swastika" in prison or during the court proceedings.

This also kinda ties into the "Secret Nazis" and again is the narrative of this Opperman group discussion. But Tate and Polanski had dinner with RFK the night he was murdered and Sirhan Sirhan was a known to be in similar circles as members of The Process Church. If you consider that JFK and RFK were soft on communism but aggressively opposed to fascism, were both very popular, and making strides to expose the "Secret Nazis", the soup gets a little thicker.

I'm interested in any comments regarding this subject, supportive or contrary. While these narratives are very interesting to me, I don't mind investigating how I'm being gullible also. And I'd still love to hear a THC episode about the subject.

 

[trished40]

I'll see if I can find the pages and photograph them. I still have a couple hundred pages to go in that 700+ page book, I am really taking my time with it since I enjoy it so much. 25 years of research went in to the 5th expanded edition, and a lot of myths are put to bed. The Family was definitely modeled after the mafia, but the murders were drug-related robberies by Tex Watson gone wrong according to the book. It's a shame the author doesn't really do interviews anymore, it's the ultimate 60s historical revisionist tome.
I'll have to refamiliarize myself with Wiley's book before giving a continued contribution to the discussion, but it was my intro to the Process and I know that everything I've seen since about their participation in murders etc has struck me as the product of active imaginations. He definitely does not portray the Process in a flattering light, though. Only the inner circle knew that the Robert deGrimston was not realy leader but the puppet of a very manipulative woman. The book is worth picking up for all of the beautiful graphic design from their magazine.

 

[prettygood]

Thanks! I'd be interested in any resources you choose to share. I'll bet if you find the pages, they're in .pdf online somewhere, or I could just buy the book.

This article from Paranoid Magazine by Adam Gorightly: <a href="http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/2013/01/the-process-church-of-the-final-judgment-and-the-manson-family-2/">http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/2013/01/the-process-church-of-the-final-judgment-and-the-manson-family-2/</a> professionally details the muddled points I made above. I understand that a narrative similar to this one is also laid out in Peter Levenda's "Sinister Forces 3", using similar references.

2 scattershot points of interest:

There is a connection between the Esalen Institute and Manson (as an attendee), and possibly Esalen and DeGrimston (as an attendee and/or speaker).

In the Process Magazine issue titled Death was printed an article by Manson. It included his musings on Death during his trial: http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/archives/process_mag.html (lousy scan)

 

[trished40]

I have a real problem with <em>The Ultimate Evil</em> being used as a primary source. It's pretty far into the satanic panic zone and full of sensationalistic inaccuracies. It really drives me crazy that so many "researchers" take it as gospel, it seems so supermarket-y. Schreck goes into a lot of reasonable detail about the problems with this book/author, as well as the circumstances of Manson's writing appearing in a Process mag. The Gorightly article would greatly benefit from referring to the Wiley book; saying things like Marianne Faithful was taken "into the fold" seems like irresponsible exaggeration. Also, he does not even realize that deGrimston was not the real leader; a pretty superficial take if you ask me.
I do need to read the Levenda trilogy though.

If you buy <em>The Manson File</em>, make sure you get the 5th edition. Unfortunately it's actually no longer available from the author/publisher, but there is a new edition in the works.
http://www.nikolasschreck.eu/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=90%3Athe-manson-file-myth-and-reality-of-an-outlaw-shaman&amp;catid=35&amp;Itemid=53

 

[prettygood]

I'll definitely add "The Manson File" to my reading list. Levenda references Schreck as well as Terry in his trilogy.
Do you feel like Terry is actually misstating facts or that he is sensationalizing his inferences and conclusions? Do you think he is fictionalizing the accounts of his direct interactions with Berkowitz or the Carrs, or anyone else for that matter?

One of the things I find so compelling about this story is how it can begin to solidify the more you find out about it. I don't discount the fact that Mary Anne (The Oricle) was a force of personality, short on temper and long on manipulation, but Robert (The Teacher) added his own influence. I think it's safe to say that they couldn't accomplish what they did (whatever that is) individually, they fed off eachother for the short time they were together. However listening to various recountings of the mid-60's to the mid-70's in The Process, and I'm totally aware of how armchair-psychologist-y this is, it seems that most people responded, reacted, and placed importance on the influences that were already present in their lives. I'd suspect that Wiley had an abusive (and/or absent) father but a manipulative and dominating mother. He, and it seems most of the young men in the group, had an Oedipean relationship with Mary Anne, while most of the young women were drawn in by the quiet but firm intellect of Robert, and everybody loves drugs. I think I'm oversimplifying and repeating things that I've seen in interviews online, but the whole thing seems ripe with so many classic story templates it would make Joseph Campbell roll his eyes.

You've obviously looked into this subject a good deal and I'm getting the impression that you've pretty much made your conclusions. I'm still on that journey and I think it might be a little more complicated than the books that have already been written. I'd be very interested read more on Terry and some of your thought there, if you choose to offer them.

Thanks for engaging!!

 

[haunted4life]

There's a band called Sabbath Assembly. Most of they're music revolves around the process church. If you're interested in the subject matter, they're worth a listen.

http://www.sabbathassembly.com/

 

[prettygood]

Thanks for posting that. I have come across Sabbath Assembly over the course of digging into this subject. I found this video particularly interesting (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqA2D5IjHQk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqA2D5IjHQk</a>).

Another band that espouses Process doctrine is the hardcore band Integrity, they even sell "not-a-swastika" pins (<a href="http://holyterrorrecords.bigcartel.com/">http://holyterrorrecords.bigcartel.com/</a>). I don't remember which album it is, but one of the kagillion albums they've put out concludes with Dwid Hellion talking about some of the philosophy of the Process.

One thing that's starting to stick out to me, ... not very diverse groups, lotta honkies, doesn't really springboard you out of the "secret-nazi" line of thinking.

 

[haunted4life]

Check out- sympathy for the devil
http://www.theprocessmovie.com/screenings/

 

[trished40]

Yeah I missed it in Portland, unfortunately. According to a friend who went, Wiley did a slide show and a q&amp;a. not a normal move by a serial murderer to open up for questions from the audience at a small independent theater!

 

[prettygood]

Because "The Process Movie" isn't showing around me right now, it made me look at how independent movies were delivered after they're shown in concentrated and specific areas. How are they available after that, when you have the whole internet to pass on and capitalize on your story?

&lt;spoiler alert&gt; I looked up "The Bridgewater Triangle" and "KARP: Kill All Redneck Pricks". One contains some relatively mundane stories about paranormal experiences south of Boston MA, the other talks about an Alt Rock band that released albums on the same labels that Beck and ISIS released albums on. You can buy and watch "The Bridgewater Traingle" online, it's even free on Amazon Prime: (<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Bridgewater-Triangle-Loren-Coleman/dp/B01M0VSIR5/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1474717172&amp;sr=8-10&amp;keywords=bridgewater+triangle">https://www.amazon.com/Bridgewater-Triangle-Loren-Coleman/dp/B01M0VSIR5/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1474717172&amp;sr=8-10&amp;keywords=bridgewater+triangle</a>), while "KARP" (which I would rater see) is not available online, or to purchase on BluRay or DVD or VHS (as far as I can find). &lt;/spoiler alert&gt;

While I fully appreciate that retrospective films may be funded into existence to talk about an intriguing history, especially one that may interest a new, potential crop of members, or new members for splinter groups (I remember seeing a website for the "Argenteum Astrum" that was just a platform for submitting your financial offerings), I'm not convinced that an organisation that participated in animal/human mutilation/murder, human/drug trafficking, lid flipping, would really brag about those things with the on-site face of the organization or the marketing message in the film (if you think Wiley is an outsider or defector, that's ok, I don't). That doesn't mean they didn't happen. Mary Anne DeGrimston didn't answer questions. No one from The Best Friends Animal Society came to say: "We definitely don't mutilate German Shepards, like those ones NYC Detective Jim Rothstein found in Untermyer Park and attached to the Process." &lt;spoiler alert&gt; &lt;see spoiler alert&gt; &lt;/spoiler alert&gt;

I'm not saying those things happened, but I also think it's as irresponsible to blanket dismiss the allegations against the Process because of Wiley and his book and that movie, as it is to blanket reject Terry's Ultimate Evil as a primary source.