'Unrestrained Capitalism'???!!! WTF R U CLOWNS SMOKING???

[shamangineer]

When I look at 'Progressive'-run Shitholes like Detroit, San Francisco, L.A., Baltimore, Chicago, etc.--which weren't always Shitholes--I wonder what excuse Democracy-worshippers have for their decline? If democracy is so great, why didn't the 'Progressive' electorate of these places recognize that things were going in a bad direction & change course? Why do they continue to re-elect the same regimes that wrecked their cities in the first place?

shamangiqueer...?

California is not as progressive as most would think, it is an at will state - which means you have little recourse for any labor issue. Most states are at will or right to work states which essentially strips any rights from the worker.

With regard to democracy:

A) The people didn't make the decisions, their representatives did - who are often chasing donors and doing their bidding.
B) If there were democracy in the workplace how many people do you think would vote to export their jobs?

 

[shamangineer]

People operate according to incentives, self-interest, & usually seek the path of least resistance when attaining resources...in the long-run, esp. as the right to vote is extended to every idiot w/a pulse & more & more facets of life are subjected to interference from the collective/state, 'democracy' creates all kinds of warped incentives, as we're currently experiencing.

Its far too easy for demagogues to stir up jealousy, hatred, envy (just look at yourself, shaman, obsessed w/OPM)...its far too tempting for people to simply vote themselves 'free' stuff instead of working for it.

Do you think that the .1% has worked as much than the bottom 90%, is that why their wealth is equal? I have repeatedly addressed the fact that the majority of one's labor benefits their employer BEFORE ever paying a portion to taxes.

Contending that what we are experiencing today is a result of too much democracy is a complete mis-representation of facts:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

 

[shamangineer]

Using the power of the state to force businesses to be run "democratically"...doesn't sound even a tad fascistic to you? Not to mention the ridiculousness of someone like a janitor or gardener having a say in how a auto-mobile manufacturing company is run...or a secretary/receptionist of a car-repair shop having say in that business...

Mondragon Cooperative has been operating since the 50's, maybe not so ridiculous:

 

[hisich]

This would require the people be involved in drafting law / policy in addition to voting on it rather than delegating these fundamental aspects of decision making in a periodic fashion."

That doesn't really explain anything. I hear many people express a desire for "real democracy", but no one ever describes what it actually is.

Define "the people" (are all 300+ MILLION Americans going to get together in a large room to "draft law/policy")? Are we all assumed to be experts in every single topic under the Sun?

Who gets to vote? Presently (USA) only like 40% of the total populace votes in Presidential elections (in state/local elections its less--oftentimes FAR less), w/about half that number deciding who runs the country. Does this change in "real democracy"?

How big of a margin is required to pass laws (50% + 1, super-majority, 2/3)?

Who will enforce the laws passed by the majority?

I know you support Debtor's Prisons for people who refuse to pay their tax debts...so I'm assuming you would also build lots of prisons to house people who refuse to go along w/the whims of the majority (which, in reality, will be a small minority of the populace)...?

 

[hisich]

At this point, democracy (or whatever small remnant left) is the only reason you're able to post your views on this forum without getting jailed up, or worse, executed.
Let that sink in for a second.

You're confusing freedom w/democracy.

I can post here because I have the FREEDOM to. Because the whims of the majority are still, for the time being, fairly CONSTRAINED from interfering in this realm. Kind of like how gay-marriage is allowed everywhere, DESPITE many places (like California) democratically voting against it.

People in Europe have "democracy" too, but can be prosecuted for saying politically incorrect things.

 

[shamangineer]

That doesn't really explain anything. I hear many people express a desire for "real democracy", but no one ever describes what it actually is.

Define "the people" (are all 300+ MILLION Americans going to get together in a large room to "draft law/policy")? Are we all assumed to be experts in every single topic under the Sun?

No. Most people are not experts in _____. But if people are knowledgeable, or they have an interest (like environmental / health regulations) they would have a voice. If they do not have an interest or do not feel knowledgeable enough to vote on something they are free not to.

Who gets to vote? Presently (USA) only like 40% of the total populace votes in Presidential elections (in state/local elections its less--oftentimes FAR less), w/about half that number deciding who runs the country. Does this change in "real democracy"?

All adult citizens would be able to vote, not that different from now. Right now voter turnout is about 40% because most people don't feel that voting will effectively reflect their interests and they have more pressing problems that require their attention like keeping their job when no time off is given to vote.

How big of a margin is required to pass laws (50% + 1, super-majority, 2/3)?

It depends on what people vote for.

Who will enforce the laws passed by the majority?

Milkmaids and mermen. What the fuck do you think? Are you going to jump up and down and call policing an artifact of a totalitarian dystopia? What would you favor for enforcement when people violate the rights of others? Mercenaries? Posses?

I know you support Debtor's Prisons for people who refuse to pay their tax debts...so I'm assuming you would also build lots of prisons to house people who refuse to go along w/the whims of the majority (which, in reality, will be a small minority of the populace)...?

There are far too many prisons. Most people would vote to remove many laws and regulations meant to create rackets, favor large corporations, and limit the rights of the people for self-determination. The laws and regulations that people would favor would be those that increase personal sovereignty, health, and protect common resources for future generations. The opposite has been trending for quite some time.

 

[shamangineer]

You're confusing freedom w/democracy.

I can post here because I have the FREEDOM to. Because the whims of the majority are still, for the time being, fairly CONSTRAINED from interfering in this realm. Kind of like how gay-marriage is allowed everywhere, DESPITE many places (like California) democratically voting against it.

People in Europe have "democracy" too, but can be prosecuted for saying politically incorrect things.

I suppose the bill of rights fell from the sky?

 

[shamangineer]

Feel free to keep convincing yourself that you are right, but I'm not going to bother responding any more.

 

[hisich]

Feel free to keep convincing yourself that you are right, but I'm not going to bother responding any more.

Take care, shamangineer

 

[enjoypolo]

Have some self-respect, would you hisich? we all gave you the benefit of the doubt here, and yet you still insist on acting like a hyena cornered against a wall.
No one has the time to be dragged down by parasites in a world already drowned by controlled-opposition and ordo ab chao.

Trolls will be left behind into oblivion, while a new World is busy sprouting.
Good luck.

 

[hisich]

Have some self-respect, would you hisich? we all gave you the benefit of the doubt here, and yet you still insist on acting like a hyena cornered against a wall.
No one has the time to be dragged down by parasites in a world already drowned by controlled-opposition and ordo ab chao.

Trolls will be left behind into oblivion, while a new World is busy sprouting.
Good luck.

 

[thegdolla]

Man this thread could have been so productive if you didnt resort to name calling and such...

Both of you have some decent points, and as is the case in many situations like this. The truth/reality of it, if there is one, is somewhere in the middle...

Instead of trying to win arguments, lets try to learn from each other. Even if we disagree...

I think the truest form of democracy is a completely unrestrained capitalism. Vote with your wallet. But thats me

 

[shamangineer]

 

[thegdolla]

I think the problem comes from people misunderstanding capitalism as corporatism....

The system we live under now is not capitalism. Capitalism is what naturally emerges when people go about their business and engage in the natural trades needed to survive. Somewhere along the way it morphed into the corporatism we have now. And that happened through representative democracy, which as pointed out is not a true democracy. We elect people to represent our interests, they (being human) are highly corruptable and sell their actual representation to the highest bidding company and represent their interests instead while lying to us. Combined with misuse of magic through the advertising industry these companies build more and more control and power... none of it is real.

If people wake up, if we dismantle the regulations which allow for and necesitate the corporatocracy we live under and get about creating and consuming intelligently the problem dissapears...

Remove the political class first and foremost, then the scum in the corporate class have no one to buy off and enforce monopolistic bs....

then people get to truly vote, by choosing how and where they allocate their products and labor without force or coercion in the mix

 

[hisich]

Man this thread could have been so productive if you didnt resort to name calling and such...

Both of you have some decent points, and as is the case in many situations like this. The truth/reality of it, if there is one, is somewhere in the middle...

Instead of trying to win arguments, lets try to learn from each other. Even if we disagree...

I think the truest form of democracy is a completely unrestrained capitalism. Vote with your wallet. But thats me

Name calling? Who did I name-call? What am I dealing with here--Kindergarteners?

I admit to having a hard time suffering fools...when I post overwhelming evidence of a massive regulatory state which also massively redistributes wealth and some chuckle-heads simply ignore it & repeat ridiculous Left-wing talking-points about "not real democracy" & "unrestrained capitalism", I tend to not take it well.

And, no, the truth is "not in the middle" in this case...it is overwhelmingly clear that a massive State apparatus exists, not "unrestrained capitalism".

 

[hisich]

I think the problem comes from people misunderstanding capitalism as corporatism....

The system we live under now is not capitalism. Capitalism is what naturally emerges when people go about their business and engage in the natural trades needed to survive. Somewhere along the way it morphed into the corporatism we have now. And that happened through representative democracy, which as pointed out is not a true democracy. We elect people to represent our interests, they (being human) are highly corruptable and sell their actual representation to the highest bidding company and represent their interests instead while lying to us. Combined with misuse of magic through the advertising industry these companies build more and more control and power... none of it is real.

If people wake up, if we dismantle the regulations which allow for and necesitate the corporatocracy we live under and get about creating and consuming intelligently the problem dissapears...

Remove the political class first and foremost, then the scum in the corporate class have no one to buy off and enforce monopolistic bs....

then people get to truly vote, by choosing how and where they allocate their products and labor without force or coercion in the mix

Amen!

 

[hisich]

And that happened through representative democracy, which as pointed out is not a true democracy. We elect people to represent our interests, they (being human) are highly corruptable and sell their actual representation to the highest bidding company and represent their interests instead while lying to us.

Political Democracy is a fatally-flawed system.


https://www.thehighersidechatsplus.com/forums/threads/democracy-the-god-that-failed.8111/

That said, I think history proves your point right: the kind of winner-take-all,, laughably low politician-to-voter ratio, "representative democracy" in force in the USA seems to be the worst combo. Add to this the insane practice of letting every 18 yo idiot w/a pulse vote & you have a disaster.

 

[hisich]

Political Democracy is a fatally-flawed system.


https://www.thehighersidechatsplus.com/forums/threads/democracy-the-god-that-failed.8111/