Why is the Ruling Class promoting UBI...?

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shamangineer

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Nov 10, 2015
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...and if you have to use the 'tool' of slavery in order to create your risk-free world so be it!
There would absolutely still be risk. Just not the risk of dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss.

Slavery is a situation where the most basic of needs and rights are conditional and are tied to authority. Freedom is a condition where needs and rights of a person do not face constraints unless they negatively impact others.
 
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shamangineer

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enjoypolo

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It's hard for me to even consider slavery as a productive tool, even if I'm a sociopath/misanthrope. For one, it's like swimming across the Atlantic with stones in your pocket. You may swim a few miles if you're really good, but it's a dead-end, though I could be wrong.

The one thing I like to ask people is: what would you do, if you had an extra $1,000 a month? Would you immediately quit your job? If so, why?

I've heard some of my colleagues say, 'well, it wouldn't change much to my situation'. But for the most part, people aren't adverse to it. It's only when it comes to how Others may use it, that all the stigma and bias comes at the forefront. Or if they like the idea, their next challenge becomes "where does the money comes from?". But that's already a step ahead in the dialogue.

Another reflection I had, was that perhaps I took for granted that given some resources, people would generally go towards achieving their sense of Meaning in life. And of course, why should it be so? In fact, I think that the biggest change that needs to happen, in conjunction of a UBI, is a discussion on where we are headed, and what are we to do.

Reflecting on the big questions: What kind of world we would want our children to grow up in? This kind of conversation is what I think is required for proper guidance in the right direction (culturally, economically and ecologically).
In the end, I can't stop someone to buy a kilo of opioids with a $1,000 and overdose on it. But, we may be able to help that person get access to resources that will turn his/her life around. So a UBI is really just the tip of the iceberg for me.
Like taking psychedelics, it's all about Set & Setting.

Hopefully, that's coherent enough.

PS: The thing I like about UBI is not so much It, but what it's based upon. That is: Decentralization (which adds redundancy at every 'node'; and in turn creates resilience); Localised (you're free to use the cash as you see fit in your context, (within the confines of the law)); and Universal: everyone eligible gets it (once again, the scales may differ: municipality; regionally; nationally; or beyond)

If you look at Nature, these are the same principles that are observed. Cells in our body only survive because they all have access to energy; if it was up to only a few at the top (e.g., the brain cells) the whole body would quickly die.
Same if you look at Soil ecology. Trees, plants, fungi help each other, not because they're "nice", but out of their own enlightened self-interest to keep the ecosystem flourishing (and for themselves to survive).
Ultimately, and though this is only my worldview, our survival depends upon on co-operation and inter-dependence. Any attempt otherwise would only lead to our slow demise.
 
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hisich

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There would absolutely still be risk. Just not the risk of dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss.

Slavery is a situation where the most basic of needs and rights are conditional and are tied to authority. Freedom is a condition where needs and rights of a person do not face constraints unless they negatively impact others.


People serving prison sentences get all of their 'basic' needs met...I wouldn't exactly call that an ideal situation.

And you continue pretending that authorities/rulers won't be involved in UBI...as well as pretending that mass numbers of people in the West are in danger of "dying destitute in the streets of a medical condition or due to a job loss".
 

hisich

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Nov 1, 2018
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The one thing I like to ask people is: what would you do, if you had an extra $1,000 a month?

If everyone (or most people) are simply given $1000/month, wouldn't the cost of goods/services simply rise by a corresponding amount, thereby defeating the very purpose of giving people 'free' money?


Another reflection I had, was that perhaps I took for granted that given some resources, people would generally go towards achieving their sense of Meaning in life.

Easy way to test this theory: look at the groups which get the most 'free' stuff now (poor/lazy/stupid people & the retired). Do they seem to be doing anything particularly useful or meaningful w/the money they get which is stolen from working/productive people?


PS: The thing I like about UBI is not so much It, but what it's based upon. That is: Decentralization (which adds redundancy at every 'node'; and in turn creates resilience).

I don't understand why UBI proponents keep asserting that a program run by a central authority/ruling-class is an example of "decentralization"...it would be like saying the same about Social Security and Medicare.

Also there is this little factor to consider:


U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion (and counting!)

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/6941...trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall


Your Pension Is a Lie: There's $210 Trillion Of Liabilities Our Government Can't Fulfill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnma...ies-our-government-cant-fulfill/#38f74a1c65b1
 

shamangineer

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Nov 10, 2015
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If everyone (or most people) are simply given $1000/month, wouldn't the cost of goods/services simply rise by a corresponding amount, thereby defeating the very purpose of giving people 'free' money?

Exactly the same, eh. How convenient for your argument, have any data to back it up? What about economies of scale?

Easy way to test this theory: look at the groups which get the most 'free' stuff now (poor/lazy/stupid people & the retired). Do they seem to be doing anything particularly useful or meaningful w/the money they get which is stolen from working/productive people?

So your argument is essentially these are garbage people?

I don't understand why UBI proponents keep asserting that a program run by a central authority/ruling-class is an example of "decentralization"...it would be like saying the same about Social Security and Medicare.

The idea is that the government would be representative. UBI is not a panacea, but a part of a larger push to democratize our government and decentralize authority which is currently arranged as a plutocracy. It requires more democracy rather than simply giving up on any sort of democratic ideal like yourself.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
From above:
"Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."

Also there is this little factor to consider:


U.S. National Debt Hits Record $22 Trillion (and counting!)

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/13/6941...trillion-a-new-record-thats-predicted-to-fall


Your Pension Is a Lie: There's $210 Trillion Of Liabilities Our Government Can't Fulfill

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnma...ies-our-government-cant-fulfill/#38f74a1c65b1

A bunch of American businesses have gotten a refund for paying zero taxes this year. I suppose hat has nothing to do with this. The cause is obviously just poor people barely scraping by living off equal parts condiments, sugar, flour, and disgust.
 

nickzeptepi

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Jun 4, 2016
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Can you explain to me how the govt. functions any differently than a psychopathic organized crime gang or slavery corporation...?

Or, for that matter, how you promoting UBI is any different...?

I'm not promoting it and the Government (the controlling mind) is slightly psychopathic, in the big picture but the people who are the cogs in the the big machine are blind and truly believe they are doing it for the good of the people.
 
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nickzeptepi

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Jun 4, 2016
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Depending on how far you are deep in the system - hooked on media, and the other mind manipulations, will depen on how you would use the money.
It takes a few years to unlearn the conditioning & Schooling, years more to discover teachings that will resonate with you to help elevate your Self and seek your Individuation.

Like Smart phones, UBI could easily be a tool for continued enslavement of the masses that are below a certain veil of consciousness, a Tool to help curious people remove the shackles of enslavement and start there own hero's jounrney to get they out of that enslavement, and also a tool for a person who is outside Plato's cave to bring glimmers of hope to those enslaved by it.

It is multi layer and multi faceted - Like Plato's cave the man who escapes and goes back to directly remove the chains and show them life outside the cave will mocked, shamed, and probably killed those he is trying to help.

A message in a movie or a song will be completely missed by those who cannot hear or see it, and be the turn key solution to enlighten the person sat next to the them.
 

hisich

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Nov 1, 2018
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Exactly the same, eh. How convenient for your argument, have any data to back it up? What about economies of scale?

Is what I suggested really so outlandish?



So your argument is essentially these are garbage people?

UBI folks claim that giving people 'free' money will enable to "pursue their dreams", etc. I simply asked if the people getting 'free' money now are particularly useful or creative...I guess you're not going to answer that question either.



The idea is that the government would be representative. UBI is not a panacea, but a part of a larger push to democratize our government and decentralize authority which is currently arranged as a plutocracy. It requires more democracy rather than simply giving up on any sort of democratic ideal like yourself.

OK, so you want me to accept that a massive welfare programs involving 100,000,000's (or possibly BILLIONS) of people, run by a central ruling authority, is an example of 'decentralization'...but you did use the words "democratize" & "democracy", so I guess that squares this particular circle!



A bunch of American businesses have gotten a refund for paying zero taxes this year. I suppose hat has nothing to do with this. The cause is obviously just poor people barely scraping by living off equal parts condiments, sugar, flour, and disgust.

This doesn't even pretend to address the 'small' problem of the extant 10's of TRILLION$ involving previous promises of 'free' shit on the part of govt...but I guess in the world of UBI rainbows & unicorns, answering tough Q's (or Q's of any kind apparently) isn't considered relevant!
 

shamangineer

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Nov 10, 2015
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OK, so you want me to accept that a massive welfare programs involving 100,000,000's (or possibly BILLIONS) of people, run by a central ruling authority, is an example of 'decentralization'...but you did use the words "democratize" & "democracy", so I guess that squares this particular circle!

Who says it can't be administered locally? It would only seem natural to have the Post Office do it.

This doesn't even pretend to address the 'small' problem of the extant 10's of TRILLION$ involving previous promises of 'free' shit on the part of govt...but I guess in the world of UBI rainbows & unicorns, answering tough Q's (or Q's of any kind apparently) isn't considered relevant!

Nothing to do with people not paying taxes by exploiting loopholes, tax schemes, or shell companies in the Seychelles? The bottom half of America live on a sliver of savings like a razor's edge.
iu
 

hisich

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Nov 1, 2018
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Who says it can't be administered locally? It would only seem natural to have the Post Office do it.

I'm sorry, but there just isn't any way for you to square the circle of a nat'l welfare program involving 100,000,000's centrally-run from DC being a system of 'decentralization'. Just give it up, man!



Nothing to do with people not paying taxes by exploiting loopholes, tax schemes, or shell companies in the Seychelles? The bottom half of America live on a sliver of savings like a razor's edge.
iu


You keep dodging the question of how to deal w/the existing TRILLION$ in unfunded liabilities (prior promises of 'free' stuff).

You also neglect the fact that income inequality (something that seems to be a naturally occurring phenomenon regardless of the political/economic system in place--Socialist hero Castro amassed a gigantic fortune while his Subjects lived in abject poverty) has increased during an era of extreme 'Progressivism' (i.e., having the govt. re-distribute vast sums of wealth & otherwise act as a Nanny for society).

I care more about my quality of life rather than greedily obsessing over what "the other guy has"...although I do agree that the Oligarchy has used the State & the naive/ignorant nature of the masses to unjustly accumulate wealth.

And you want to talk about income inequality? How about the imbalance between 100,000,000's of individual citizens (most in the low-to-middle income range) VS. an organization controlled by a few 100 people (Govt.) which has TRILLION$? Didn't think of that, did ya'...?


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shamangineer

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Nov 10, 2015
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"Cost estimates that consider the difference between upfront and real cost are a fraction of inflated gross cost estimates. For instance, economist and philosopher Karl Widerquist has shown that to fund a UBI of $12,000 per adult and $6,000 per child every year (while keeping all other spending the same) the US would have to raise an additional $539 billion a year—less than 3% of its GDP. This is a small fraction of the figures that get thrown around of over $3 trillion(the gross cost of this policy.) Karl’s simplified scheme has people slowly start contributing back their UBI in taxes to the common pot as they earn, with net beneficiaries being anyone individually earning less than $24,000 a year."
https://qz.com/1355729/universal-basic-income-ubi-costs-far-less-than-you-think/

This will definitely blow your mind, but eliminating private health insurance and moving people to a medicare for all system would probably be able to offset the funding from your wallet by increased efficiency and reduced cost. Not by a little, but enough to fund the above Yang-style concept six times over. So if that were expanded to say 40-55k depending on the area it should be doable. That's just back of the envelope, but entirely within the realm of possibility and with a buffer.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-plan-cost-save-money-2018-7
 
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hisich

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Nov 1, 2018
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"Cost estimates that consider the difference between upfront and real cost are a fraction of inflated gross cost estimates. For instance, economist and philosopher Karl Widerquist has shown that to fund a UBI of $12,000 per adult and $6,000 per child every year (while keeping all other spending the same) the US would have to raise an additional $539 billion a year—less than 3% of its GDP. This is a small fraction of the figures that get thrown around of over $3 trillion(the gross cost of this policy.) Karl’s simplified scheme has people slowly start contributing back their UBI in taxes to the common pot as they earn, with net beneficiaries being anyone individually earning less than $24,000 a year."
https://qz.com/1355729/universal-basic-income-ubi-costs-far-less-than-you-think/

This will definitely blow your mind, but eliminating private health insurance and moving people to a medicare for all system would probably be able to offset the funding from your wallet by increased efficiency and reduced cost. Not by a little, but enough to fund this six times over. So that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-plan-cost-save-money-2018-7


I wonder if Karl has figured out what to do about the existing $50-200 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities the FedGov. alone has wracked up? Or what to do about all of the troubled state/local pension plans which are already starting to become unsustainable? Or what kind of consequences will occur when attempting a scheme of this sort in a nation of 100,000,000's?

There is no such thing as private health insurance...govts. (nat'l & state) have interfered so much in that market that it can no longer be referred to as "private". Medicare is already bankrupt, but why let that get in the way of a good story, eh?

Economic reality will put an end to these kind of fever-dream delusions, just like it did in the USSR...


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hisich

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Nov 1, 2018
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No private healthcare?? You must be joking, or utterly clueless. The rest of the industrial world has public healthcare. It is not as unattainable as you, Trump, or Hillary Clinton would contend, despite somehow thinking we have it already.


No, there isn't, really...govts. essentially run 'private' insurance via massive regulation. You keep pretending that the USA's HC system is an example of free-market capitalism when the truth is that its already largely govt.-run. You don't even understand what's going on in the USA, let alone "the rest of the industrial world" (your arrogance is showing again!).

Now about those Debtor's Prisons you want to set-up...


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